On 16 Sep 2002, at 19:46, Jay Hipps wrote:
> Tiebreak procedures are:
> j. Fewest disciplinary points
Wasn't that one of Professor Allen's criteria? :-) I'd sure be glad to drop out of the playoffs thanks to Kevin Stott or Noel Kenny . . .
David Allan
dallan@netcarrier.com
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From: "Keith Bundy"
To: "North American Soccer Mailing List"
Subject: [nas] Playoff scenarios
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:34 -0400
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Who'd a thunk it...
There is a real chance that DC & NE may make the playoffs while Chicago &
the Metrostars miss out. That scenario seemed 110% unlikely even a few
weeks ago. Not only that, but LA could end up with the Supporter's Shield,
which San Jose seemed to have a stranglehold on. What a topsy-turvy season
this has been.
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Subject: RE: [nas] Playoff scenarios
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:22:59 -0400
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Makes you think how the playoffs could turn out=2E Heck, at this point I
could see the Revs at the Cup final the way Twellman is playing=2E
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Keith Bundy kdaleb@wsu=2Eedu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:34 -0400
To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: [nas] Playoff scenarios
Who'd a thunk it=2E=2E=2E
There is a real chance that DC & NE may make the playoffs while Chicago &
the Metrostars miss out=2E That scenario seemed 110% unlikely even a few
weeks ago=2E Not only that, but LA could end up with the Supporter's Shie=
ld,
which San Jose seemed to have a stranglehold on=2E What a topsy-turvy sea=
son
this has been=2E
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 07:24:27 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:24:41 -0400
From: mbabyak@duke.edu
To: North American Soccer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nas] Playoff scenarios
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Yeah, it's really been a great season in a lot of ways. Bump in
attendance, no really embarrassing officiating (at least that I've seen),
some great play on the field, and a real dogfight for the playoffs.
Watching LA-San Jose the other night really felt like watching a real pro
league. Would be wonderful to see DC and NE pull out a last minute run and
get in.
Mike Babyak
--On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:13 AM -0400 Keith Bundy
wrote:
> Who'd a thunk it...
>
> There is a real chance that DC & NE may make the playoffs while Chicago &
> the Metrostars miss out. That scenario seemed 110% unlikely even a few
> weeks ago. Not only that, but LA could end up with the Supporter's
> Shield, which San Jose seemed to have a stranglehold on. What a
> topsy-turvy season this has been.
>
>
> ---
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>
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From: "Chris Keem"
To:
References:
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis 9/15 red card
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:25:43 -0400
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>From where I was in the stands it looked like he just stomped on alegria's
head. The ref doesn't have that great slo-mo instant replay that we have
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike boettge"
To: ;
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis 9/15 red card
> >From: "Keith Bundy"
> (Isn't that what Zidane got - a total of
> >three games - for his raking of the Saudi player in '98?)
> >
>
> Yes. He was ejected and then had to sit out the next two games besides.
And
> he didn't really even rake the guy. He just put a little extra downward
> pressure on as leapt over the guy on the ground. Just kinda stepped on him
> when he really didn't need to. I had to see it in slo-mo to really pick it
> up. Very sharp referee.
> I didn't see the Mathis incident though. I was watching Dallas/NE.
> MikeB,StL,Mo
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
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From: "Kevin Lindstrom"
To: "NAS" , "Burn List"
Subject: [nas] D@MN STRAIGHT
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:39:44 -0500
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I usually try to keep a somewhat objective position when it comes to MLS as
a whole -- mostly in the realization that having a league is much more
important at this point than who wins -- but this piece by Viking hits the
nail on the head.
"Burn fans are tough. We take more official abuse than all the other teams
combined. We stick by our players because no one handed them to us on a
platter with no cap attached. We love our front office because they suffer
like we do. We play in the oldest stadium in the league, with the worst
amenities. We have no owner in a league that promised us one, and no sign of
that ending anytime soon. And the Burn make the playoffs ever year and make
the major market patsies look bad by comparison. I would not trade teams for
real money. You can screw us out of whatever you want, eventually you too
will hit a string of bad luck, and we'll be the ones dishing it out."
http://www.3rddegree.net/comment/fan/index.htm
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:10:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirsten Tautfest
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis 9/14 red card
To: nas@americakicks.com
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--- Chris Keem wrote:
> >From where I was in the stands it looked like he
> just stomped on alegria's
> head. The ref doesn't have that great slo-mo
> instant replay that we have
>
It wasn't a head shot. And the look/expression on
Mathis' face looked like he was stomping on Algeria's
stomach/chest was deliberate. Right in front of the
ref!
Anyone have photos of the cleat marks it might have
left?
Kirsten
=====
"We are loud. We are proud. We are from Chicago." - myself on Wild Chicago re Section 8.
"Playing with fire is bad for those who end up burning themselves. For everyone else, it's a great pleasure."
--- Leon Daudet
__________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
From: Peter Welpton
Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
To: US Soccer List
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By Ives Galarcep
North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head
in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in response
to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping
on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly. Zambrano
knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard that
Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident, the
coach finally spoke out.
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result of
his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't behave
the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to let him get
away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the off-season
with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's fine.
We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, always
willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS
match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U.S.
national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game at
the World Cup.
"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The issues
about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it and
does something about it."
There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's red
card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulated
six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much better
with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 2001
to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last year,
but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, which
made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
What can the Metros do?
Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that he
is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn't
speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sort
of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the case,
Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more time
arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
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Subject: [nas] St. Johns to open up in new soccer only stadia
From:
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http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/17/sports/soccer/17SOCCER.html?tntemail1
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From: "Keith Bundy"
To: "North American Soccer Mailing List"
Subject: [nas] Possible new DCU training center
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:30:17 -0400
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26627-2002Sep16.html
Where have they been training since they lost their old facility? (the one
that the church group bought)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:32:51 2002
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From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
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Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had=2E Back in M=
ay
he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
the sport=2E Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into effe=
ct=2E
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry=2Ecom
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
By Ives Galarcep
North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept=2E 17, 2002
Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head=
in disbelief=2E The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in respon=
se
to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D=2EC=2E United, or a result of see=
ing
his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further=2E Zambrano was left
speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control=2E
At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping=
on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly=2E Zambra=
no
knew better=2E He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to=
believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard tha=
t
Mathis called his stepping on D=2EC=2E midfielder Jose Alegria an accident=
, the
coach finally spoke out=2E
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put in=
to
words what is wrong with Mathis=2E "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to=
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over=2E"
Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
best described as maniacal at times=2E An easy-going and affable person of=
f
the field, Mathis switches from Dr=2E Jeckyl to Mr=2E Hyde on the field, w=
ith
the soccer ball serving as his full moon=2E He rails on officials, berates=
teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
smack in the face=2E Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
it=2E When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result =
of
his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion=2E
"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't behav=
e
the way he does," said Zambrano=2E "We care about him too much to let him =
get
away with acting this way=2E We have to address this issue in the off-seas=
on
with a severity and a compassion that it deserves=2E"
Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him=2E
"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis=2E "That's fi=
ne=2E
We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it=2E"
Temperamental soccer players are nothing new=2E The stories of Roy Keane's=
persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled=2E But unlik=
e
Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
not=2E Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, alw=
ays
willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
toughest of losses=2E On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some=
would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS=
match=2E Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U=
=2ES=2E
national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game =
at
the World Cup=2E
"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said=2E "The iss=
ues
about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it a=
nd
does something about it=2E"
There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions=2E While Saturday's =
red
card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulate=
d
six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001=2E He did not do much be=
tter
with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 200=
1
to 2002 (six yellows and one red)=2E
Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates=2E Brazilia=
n
forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last yea=
r,
but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees=2E Zambrano
addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, whi=
ch
made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow=2E
What can the Metros do?
Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem=2E The team will
already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
expires after the 2003 season=2E The Georgia native has already stated tha=
t he
is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn'=
t
speed up it's contract talks=2E The anger management issues could become a=
stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sor=
t
of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives=2E The talk of bad behavior
could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors=2E Whatever the c=
ase,
Zambrano was at least right in one statement=2E Mathis cannot spend more t=
ime
arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
receiving cards=2E Even he would not argue with that=2E
---
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Subject: [nas] OT: Champions League preview
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Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
From:
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Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
sometimes. I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee surgery
as well. And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the hardest
goal for the US in Korea vs Korea. Think that was easy? I was there , it was
not. Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza sense of behavior,
but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the buck to save his job
and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond saving.
BD
From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago.com
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had. Back in May
he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into effect.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
To: nas@americakicks.com
Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
By Ives Galarcep
North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head
in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in response
to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping
on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly. Zambrano
knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard that
Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident, the
coach finally spoke out.
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result of
his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't behave
the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to let him get
away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the off-season
with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's fine.
We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, always
willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS
match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U.S.
national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game at
the World Cup.
"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The issues
about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it and
does something about it."
There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's red
card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulated
six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much better
with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 2001
to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last year,
but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, which
made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
What can the Metros do?
Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that he
is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn't
speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sort
of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the case,
Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more time
arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
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Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end someti=
mes. I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee surgery as we=
ll. And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the hardest goal for=
the US in Korea vs Korea. Think that was easy? I was there , it was not. &n=
bsp;Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza sense of behavior, but =
get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the buck to save his job and as=
anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond saving.
BD
From: "billq@rcnchicago.com" <billq@rcnchic=
ago.com>
Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago.com
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he ha=
d. Back in May
he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into ef=
fect.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
To: nas@americakicks.com
Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
By Ives Galarcep
North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head<=
BR>
in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in response<=
BR>
to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping<=
BR>
on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly. Zambrano<=
BR>
knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard that=
Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident, the=
coach finally spoke out.
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could n=
ot put into
words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to=
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to<=
BR>
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."=
Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result of<=
BR>
his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't b=
ehave
the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to l=
et him get
away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the off-season<=
BR>
with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "Th=
at's fine.
We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, always=
willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS<=
BR>
match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U.S.=
national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game a=
t
the World Cup.
"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back t=
hen
and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "=
The issues
about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it an=
d
does something about it."
There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's red=
card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulated=
six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much bette=
r
with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 2001=
to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last year=
,
but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, whic=
h
made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
What can the Metros do?
Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that h=
e
is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn't=
speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sort=
of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the case=
,
Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more time=
arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
---
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:47:51 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:48:04 -0400
From: mbabyak@duke.edu
To: nas@americakicks.com
Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Message-ID: <1471133270.1032263284@[152.3.209.160]>
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But this problem preceded the SI cover by a long time. If you recall, he
was already a recognized loose cannon for the Nats.
--On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:33 AM -0400 "billq@rcnchicago.com"
wrote:
> Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had. Back in May
> he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
> has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
> the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into
> effect.
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
> To: nas@americakicks.com
> Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
>
>
> By Ives Galarcep
> North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
>
> Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head
> in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in response
> to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
> his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
> speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
>
> At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
> seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping
> on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly. Zambrano
> knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
> believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard
> that Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an
> accident, the coach finally spoke out.
>
> "Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put
> into words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified
> to identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he
> needs to deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is
> over."
>
> Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
> best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
> the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
> the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
> teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
> smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
> drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
> it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result of
> his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
>
> "I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't
> behave the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to
> let him get away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in
> the off-season with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
>
> Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
>
> "Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
> bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's
> fine. We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
>
> Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
> persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
> Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
> not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team,
> always willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media
> after the toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer,
> and some would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very
> first MLS match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis'
> behavior with U.S. national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three
> years ago, and suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis
> starting only one game at the World Cup.
>
> "I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
> and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The
> issues about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that
> became an issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns
> up to it and does something about it."
>
> There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's
> red card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star
> accumulated six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not
> do much better with the national team, leading all players on total cards
> earned from 2001 to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
>
> Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
> forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last
> year, but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees.
> Zambrano addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's
> match, which made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
>
> What can the Metros do?
>
> Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
> already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
> expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that
> he is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS
> doesn't speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could
> become a stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros
> suggest some sort of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk
> of bad behavior could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors.
> Whatever the case, Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis
> cannot spend more time arguing than playing, and more importantly he
> cannot afford to continue receiving cards. Even he would not argue with
> that.
>
>
>
> ---
> NAS is hosted by America Kicks (http://www.americakicks.com)
> To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nas.americakicks.com
> To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.com
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:49:46 2002
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Subject: [nas] MLS Playoff breakdown (PDF file version)
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Nice PDF download from MLS HQ
http://www.mlsnet.com/special/mlscup/02/media/playoff_scenarios.pdf
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:48:40 -0400
To: nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: [nas] CL Prediction
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Any predictions on Roma Vs Real today?
I'll go for Real 2-0 Roma...
Liverpool vs Valencia - 3-2 to a leaky Liverpool
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:54:46 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:54:56 -0400
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I predict that Owen finally gets off his butt and scores today=2E
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Niall Swan nialls@rcn=2Ecom
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:48:40 -0400
To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: [nas] CL Prediction
Any predictions on Roma Vs Real today?
I'll go for Real 2-0 Roma=2E=2E=2E
Liverpool vs Valencia - 3-2 to a leaky Liverpool
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www=2Esoccerresort=2Ecom=20
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:56:31 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:57:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [nas] US U17's v Uruguay FISF Final (R)
From:
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USSF report:
http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=22086&itype=
From:
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:55:43 -0700
To: NAS
Subject: [nas] US U17's v Uruguay FISF Final (R)
Uruguay 2 US U17's 0
-----
http://www.futbol.com.uy/mvdnews/hnnoticiaj1.cgi?936,0,0,20020916
Uruguay the Convincing Champion!
Header
The Uruguay U-17 Team left with the International Friendly Tournament Title
that recently took place in Italy, after overcoming the other finalist
United States by a score of 2-0. The winning goals were converted in the
first half by Juan Albin and Ivan de la Sierra.
This is a notable accomplishment for the Uruguay U-17 squed that is
currently preparing for the South American championship to take place next
year in Venezuela
Directed by "Polilla" Da Silva, they won 2-0 in the tournament final against
the United States through the goals of Juan Albin and Ivan de la Sierra in
the first half, a game played in the city of Gaeta's stadium.
Uruguay finished a great tournament once they consecrated it as champions in
convincing form. It is noteworthy to remember that in the tournament's first
phase Uruguay beat the local Italian squad through penalties after
equalizing the game 1-1 in regular time, then the Czech Republic (3-1),
Ireland (3-0), and then won the final against the United States (2-0).
The Baby Blue Delegation will be arriving in our country the 18th,
Wednesday, at 10:30 in the morning at the Internacional de Carrasco Airport.
--MS_Mac_OE_3115097849_207488_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Re: [nas] US U17's v Uruguay FISF Final (R)
USSF report:
http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=3D22086&itype=3D
From: <big_dog@fastmail.fm>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:55:43 -0700
To: NAS <NAS@americakicks.com>
Subject: [nas] US U17's v Uruguay FISF Final (R)
Uruguay 2 US U17's 0
-----
http://www.futbol.com.uy/mvdnews/hnnoticiaj1.cgi?936,0,0,20020916
Uruguay the Convinc=
ing Champion!
Header
The Uruguay U-17 Team left with the International Friendly Tournament Ti=
tle that recently took place in Italy, after overcoming the other finalist U=
nited States by a score of 2-0. The winning goals were converted in the firs=
t half by Juan Albin and Ivan de la Sierra.
This is a notable accomplishment for the Uruguay U-17 squed that is current=
ly preparing for the South American championship to take place next year in =
Venezuela
Directed by "Polilla" Da Silva, they won 2-0 in the tournament fi=
nal against the United States through the goals of Juan Albin and Ivan de la=
Sierra in the first half, a game played in the city of Gaeta's stadium.
Uruguay finished a great tournament once they consecrated it as champions i=
n convincing form. It is noteworthy to remember that in the tournament's fir=
st phase Uruguay beat the local Italian squad through penalties after equali=
zing the game 1-1 in regular time, then the Czech Republic (3-1), Ireland (3=
-0), and then won the final against the United States (2-0).
The Baby Blue Delegation will be arriving in our country the 18th, Wednesda=
y, at 10:30 in the morning at the Internacional de Carrasco Airport.
--MS_Mac_OE_3115097849_207488_MIME_Part--
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:57:38 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:54:31 -0400
To: ,
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
In-Reply-To:
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Yes, I am not sure Mathis has something most other players don't. Many
players get more aggressive on the field, and while Mathis has gone too far
this weekend, my view is that this is not enough to suggest psychotherapy
(maybe he needs it, no more than the rest of us). It seems like his Coach
is over-reacting. What about good old fashioned public loyalty, and an arm
around the shoulder behind the scenes.
Now Keane - there is a case for some "professional" help. But Mathis - not yet!
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
At 08:48 AM 9/17/02 -0700, big_dog@fastmail.fm wrote:
>Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
>sometimes. I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee
>surgery as well. And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the
>hardest goal for the US in Korea vs Korea. Think that was easy? I was
>there , it was not. Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza
>sense of behavior, but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the
>buck to save his job and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond saving.
>BD
>
>>From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
>>Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago.com
>>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
>>To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
>>Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
>>
>Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had. Back in May
>he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
>has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
>the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into effect.
>
>Original Message:
>-----------------
>From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
>To: nas@americakicks.com
>Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
>
>
>
>By Ives Galarcep
>North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
>
>Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head
>in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in response
>to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
>his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
>speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
>
>At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
>seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping
>on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly. Zambrano
>knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
>believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard that
>Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident, the
>coach finally spoke out.
>
>"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
>words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
>identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
>deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
>
>Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
>best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
>the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
>the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
>teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
>smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
>drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
>it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result of
>his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
>
>"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't behave
>the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to let him get
>away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the off-season
>with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
>
>Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
>
>"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
>bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's fine.
>We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
>
>Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
>persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
>Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
>not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, always
>willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
>toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
>would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS
>match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U.S.
>national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
>suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game at
>the World Cup.
>
>"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
>and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The issues
>about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
>issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it and
>does something about it."
>
>There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's red
>card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulated
>six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much better
>with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 2001
>to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
>
>Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
>forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last year,
>but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
>addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, which
>made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
>
>What can the Metros do?
>
>Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
>already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
>expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that he
>is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn't
>speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
>stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sort
>of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
>could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the case,
>Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more time
>arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
>receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
>
>
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:57:56 2002
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From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
To: big_dog@fastmail.fm, nas@americakicks.com
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:58:06 -0400
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There are those who would disagree with the professional tag=2E :) That
being said, I know of Clint's past and he did score a cracker of a goal in=
the WC, but since he has returned he really has seen his year go downhill,=
with the knee injury, the frustration of not being sold overseas and now
this red card=2E True, OZ may be trying to justify maybe trading him afte=
r
the season (not to Chicago dear god), but still after seeing the evidence =
I
think that you have to be a little off your rocker to do what he did
Saturday=2E =20
Original Message:
-----------------
From: big_dog@fastmail=2Efm
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:48:33 -0700
To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
sometimes=2E I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee sur=
gery
as well=2E And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the hardest=
goal for the US in Korea vs Korea=2E Think that was easy? I was there , it=
was
not=2E Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza sense of behavior=
,
but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the buck to save his job
and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond saving=2E
BD
From: "billq@rcnchicago=2Ecom"
Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago=2Ecom
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
To: peter@lexandterry=2Ecom, nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had=2E Back in M=
ay
he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
the sport=2E Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into effe=
ct=2E
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry=2Ecom
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
By Ives Galarcep
North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept=2E 17, 2002
Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his head=
in disbelief=2E The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in respon=
se
to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D=2EC=2E United, or a result of see=
ing
his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further=2E Zambrano was left
speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control=2E
At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally stepping=
on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly=2E Zambra=
no
knew better=2E He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to=
believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard tha=
t
Mathis called his stepping on D=2EC=2E midfielder Jose Alegria an accident=
, the
coach finally spoke out=2E
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put in=
to
words what is wrong with Mathis=2E "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to=
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over=2E"
Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
best described as maniacal at times=2E An easy-going and affable person of=
f
the field, Mathis switches from Dr=2E Jeckyl to Mr=2E Hyde on the field, w=
ith
the soccer ball serving as his full moon=2E He rails on officials, berates=
teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
smack in the face=2E Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
it=2E When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result =
of
his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion=2E
"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't behav=
e
the way he does," said Zambrano=2E "We care about him too much to let him =
get
away with acting this way=2E We have to address this issue in the off-seas=
on
with a severity and a compassion that it deserves=2E"
Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him=2E
"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis=2E "That's fi=
ne=2E
We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it=2E"
Temperamental soccer players are nothing new=2E The stories of Roy Keane's=
persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled=2E But unlik=
e
Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
not=2E Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team, alw=
ays
willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
toughest of losses=2E On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some=
would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first MLS=
match=2E Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with U=
=2ES=2E
national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game =
at
the World Cup=2E
"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said=2E "The iss=
ues
about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it a=
nd
does something about it=2E"
There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions=2E While Saturday's =
red
card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star accumulate=
d
six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001=2E He did not do much be=
tter
with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from 200=
1
to 2002 (six yellows and one red)=2E
Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates=2E Brazilia=
n
forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last yea=
r,
but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees=2E Zambrano
addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match, whi=
ch
made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow=2E
What can the Metros do?
Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem=2E The team will
already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
expires after the 2003 season=2E The Georgia native has already stated tha=
t he
is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS doesn'=
t
speed up it's contract talks=2E The anger management issues could become a=
stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some sor=
t
of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives=2E The talk of bad behavior
could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors=2E Whatever the c=
ase,
Zambrano was at least right in one statement=2E Mathis cannot spend more t=
ime
arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
receiving cards=2E Even he would not argue with that=2E
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 08:59:08 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:56:00 -0400
To: billq@rcnchicago.com,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: RE: [nas] CL Prediction
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Ah Bill- we all have peaks and valleys!! ;-)
At 11:54 AM 9/17/02 -0400, billq@rcnchicago.com wrote:
>I predict that Owen finally gets off his butt and scores today.
>
>Original Message:
>-----------------
>From: Niall Swan nialls@rcn.com
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:48:40 -0400
>To: nas@americakicks.com
>Subject: [nas] CL Prediction
>
>
>Any predictions on Roma Vs Real today?
>
>I'll go for Real 2-0 Roma...
>
>Liverpool vs Valencia - 3-2 to a leaky Liverpool
>
>Niall
>
>The Soccer Resort
>www.soccerresort.com
>
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 09:02:15 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:59:08 -0400
To: ,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] St. Johns to open up in new soccer only stadia
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Saw it last week - was training on adjacent field. Very nice indeed.
Mmmmmmm. Everyone was raving about it.
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
At 08:26 AM 9/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/17/sports/soccer/17SOCCER.html?tntemail1
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 09:12:22 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:13:35 -0700
Subject: Re: [nas] Possible new DCU training center
From:
To: Keith Bundy ,
North American Soccer Mailing List
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At the stadium practice fields.
From: "Keith Bundy"
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:30:17 -0400
To: "North American Soccer Mailing List"
Subject: [nas] Possible new DCU training center
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26627-2002Sep16.html
Where have they been training since they lost their old facility? (the one
that the church group bought)
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Re: [nas] Possible new DCU training center
At the stadium practice fields.
From: "Keith =
Bundy" <kdaleb@wsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:30:17 -0400
To: "North American Soccer Mailing List" <nas@americaki=
cks.com>
Subject: [nas] Possible new DCU training center
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26627-2002Se=
p16.html
Where have they been training since they lost their old facility? (the one<=
BR>
that the church group bought)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 09:15:07 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:15:32 -0400
To: nas@americakicks.com
From: Evan Whitney
Subject: Re: [nas] St. Johns to open up in new soccer only stadia
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020917115721.00c16440@pop.rcn.com>
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>Saw it last week - was training on adjacent field. Very nice indeed.
>Mmmmmmm. Everyone was raving about it.
Some pictures here:
http://www.redstormsports.com/pls/portal30/retreive_img_data?img_id=2537
http://www.redstormsports.com/pls/portal30/retreive_img_data?img_id=2538
http://www.redstormsports.com/pls/portal30/retreive_img_data?img_id=2539
http://www.redstormsports.com/pls/portal30/retreive_img_data?img_id=2540
http://www.redstormsports.com/pls/portal30/retreive_img_data?img_id=2541
-Evan
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 09:19:04 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:20:35 -0700
Subject: [nas] MLS Newslinks 09-17 (11)
From:
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Rimando named player of the week
http://www.mlsnet.com/content/02/pow0916rimando.html
MLS Newsstand 09-17 (10)
http://www.mlsnet.com/content/02/mls0917newsstand.html
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From: "MrMoore"
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Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:00:27 -0500
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Amen. Geez, I cannot believe this thread.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Swan"
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> Yes, I am not sure Mathis has something most other players don't. Many
> players get more aggressive on the field, and while Mathis has gone too
far
> this weekend, my view is that this is not enough to suggest psychotherapy
> (maybe he needs it, no more than the rest of us). It seems like his Coach
> is over-reacting. What about good old fashioned public loyalty, and an arm
> around the shoulder behind the scenes.
>
> Now Keane - there is a case for some "professional" help. But Mathis - not
yet!
>
> Niall
>
> The Soccer Resort
> www.soccerresort.com
>
>
>
>
> At 08:48 AM 9/17/02 -0700, big_dog@fastmail.fm wrote:
> >Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
> >sometimes. I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee
> >surgery as well. And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the
> >hardest goal for the US in Korea vs Korea. Think that was easy? I was
> >there , it was not. Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza
> >sense of behavior, but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the
> >buck to save his job and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond
saving.
> >BD
> >
> >>From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
> >>Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago.com
> >>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
> >>To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
> >>Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> >>
> >Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had. Back in
May
> >he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
> >has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
> >the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into
effect.
> >
> >Original Message:
> >-----------------
> >From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
> >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
> >To: nas@americakicks.com
> >Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> >
> >
> >
> >By Ives Galarcep
> >North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
> >
> >Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his
head
> >in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in
response
> >to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
> >his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
> >speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
> >
> >At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
> >seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally
stepping
> >on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly.
Zambrano
> >knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
> >believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard
that
> >Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident,
the
> >coach finally spoke out.
> >
> >"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put
into
> >words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
> >identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs
to
> >deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
> >
> >Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
> >best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
> >the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
> >the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
> >teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
> >smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
> >drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
> >it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result
of
> >his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
> >
> >"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't
behave
> >the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to let him
get
> >away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the
off-season
> >with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
> >
> >Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
> >
> >"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
> >bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's
fine.
> >We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
> >
> >Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
> >persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
> >Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
> >not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team,
always
> >willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
> >toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
> >would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first
MLS
> >match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with
U.S.
> >national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
> >suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game
at
> >the World Cup.
> >
> >"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
> >and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The
issues
> >about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
> >issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it
and
> >does something about it."
> >
> >There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's
red
> >card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star
accumulated
> >six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much
better
> >with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from
2001
> >to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
> >
> >Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
> >forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last
year,
> >but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
> >addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match,
which
> >made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
> >
> >What can the Metros do?
> >
> >Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
> >already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
> >expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that
he
> >is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS
doesn't
> >speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
> >stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some
sort
> >of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
> >could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the
case,
> >Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more
time
> >arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
> >receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 10:11:53 2002
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From: RichieAnimal@cs.com
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:11:50 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 11:20:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
peter@lexandterry.com writes:
> "Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
> words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
> identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
> deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
>
This is one of the many reasons why Zambrano will not be coaching the
Metrostars next season. He did the same thing with Diallo earlier this
season. The pressure of winning seems to be too much for OZ he needs a rest.
Have a problem with a player take him a side privately, and talk to him about
it. You don't say anything about one of your players to the press that could
hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
That foul was stupid, but it certainly wasn't vicious. Another official could
have given him a yellow, and not a red. He should be given a one game
suspension, and not more then that. That DC player was not injured. Mathis
wound up standing between the players legs after the players slide tackle if
I am remembering right. I wonder if the Metrostars will bring that up at the
arbitration hearing.
That problem I have with Mathis is that he talks to much on the field. He
gets cards for that, just as Ramos got cards for doing that most of career
except with the national team. Ramos has been very quiet this year.
On that game, it was an important game. Then why would Oz not start Andy
Williams in that game? He can pass, he is quick and he can beat people off
the dribble. Play Williams, Ramos, and Mathis on the same field at the same
time. Was Williams injured? That would be the only reason not to play
Williams. Plus Williams works well with Diallo.
Richie
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 11:20:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter@lexandterry.com writes:
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
This is one of the many reasons why Zambrano will not be coaching the Metrostars next season. He did the same thing with Diallo earlier this season. The pressure of winning seems to be too much for OZ he needs a rest.
Have a problem with a player take him a side privately, and talk to him about it. You don't say anything about one of your players to the press that could hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
That foul was stupid, but it certainly wasn't vicious. Another official could have given him a yellow, and not a red. He should be given a one game suspension, and not more then that. That DC player was not injured. Mathis wound up standing between the players legs after the players slide tackle if I am remembering right. I wonder if the Metrostars will bring that up at the arbitration hearing.
That problem I have with Mathis is that he talks to much on the field. He gets cards for that, just as Ramos got cards for doing that most of career except with the national team. Ramos has been very quiet this year.
On that game, it was an important game. Then why would Oz not start Andy Williams in that game? He can pass, he is quick and he can beat people off the dribble. Play Williams, Ramos, and Mathis on the same field at the same time. Was Williams injured? That would be the only reason not to play Williams. Plus Williams works well with Diallo.
Richie
--part1_14c.142d29d4.2ab8bc56_boundary--
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 10:21:50 2002
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Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
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Guys, I didn't mean to imply that Clint had mental health problems=2E Tho=
se
who know me well know that I am supersensitive to that=2E Once I had a
chance to review what I wrote (done in a hurried break this morning), I
think that the spirit of my remarks got me in trouble=2E Again, I think t=
hat
Clint has been racked with bad luck since the WC, but he is by far not
needing to see a shrink for his problems=2E An attitude adjustment on the=
field perhaps, but not mental helath treatments=2E Sorry if I stepped on =
any
toes out here=2E
Bill Q=2E
Original Message:
-----------------
From: MrMoore mrmoore01@prodigy=2Enet
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:00:27 -0500
To: big_dog@fastmail=2Efm, nas@americakicks=2Ecom, nialls@rcn=2Ecom
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Amen=2E Geez, I cannot believe this thread=2E
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Swan"
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> Yes, I am not sure Mathis has something most other players don't=2E Many=
> players get more aggressive on the field, and while Mathis has gone too
far
> this weekend, my view is that this is not enough to suggest psychotherap=
y
> (maybe he needs it, no more than the rest of us)=2E It seems like his Co=
ach
> is over-reacting=2E What about good old fashioned public loyalty, and an=
arm
> around the shoulder behind the scenes=2E
>
> Now Keane - there is a case for some "professional" help=2E But Mathis -=
not
yet!
>
> Niall
>
> The Soccer Resort
> www=2Esoccerresort=2Ecom
>
>
>
>
> At 08:48 AM 9/17/02 -0700, big_dog@fastmail=2Efm wrote:
> >Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
> >sometimes=2E I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee
> >surgery as well=2E And despite the major one, some may argue he scored =
the
> >hardest goal for the US in Korea vs Korea=2E Think that was easy? I was=
> >there , it was not=2E Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza=
> >sense of behavior, but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the=
> >buck to save his job and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond
saving=2E
> >BD
> >
> >>From: "billq@rcnchicago=2Ecom"
> >>Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago=2Ecom
> >>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
> >>To: peter@lexandterry=2Ecom, nas@americakicks=2Ecom
> >>Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> >>
> >Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had=2E Back i=
n
May
> >he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then h=
e
> >has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling o=
f
> >the sport=2E Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into
effect=2E
> >
> >Original Message:
> >-----------------
> >From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry=2Ecom
> >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
> >To: nas@americakicks=2Ecom
> >Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> >
> >
> >
> >By Ives Galarcep
> >North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept=2E 17, 2002
> >
> >Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his
head
> >in disbelief=2E The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in
response
> >to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D=2EC=2E United, or a result of =
seeing
> >his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further=2E Zambrano was lef=
t
> >speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control=2E
> >
> >At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match=
> >seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally
stepping
> >on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly=2E
Zambrano
> >knew better=2E He has seen his star player lose his head too many times=
to
> >believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard
that
> >Mathis called his stepping on D=2EC=2E midfielder Jose Alegria an accid=
ent,
the
> >coach finally spoke out=2E
> >
> >"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put=
into
> >words what is wrong with Mathis=2E "I am not professionally qualified t=
o
> >identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs=
to
> >deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over=2E=
"
> >
> >Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can =
be
> >best described as maniacal at times=2E An easy-going and affable person=
off
> >the field, Mathis switches from Dr=2E Jeckyl to Mr=2E Hyde on the field=
, with
> >the soccer ball serving as his full moon=2E He rails on officials, bera=
tes
> >teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push =
or
> >smack in the face=2E Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
> >drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired =
of
> >it=2E When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a resu=
lt
of
> >his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion=2E
> >
> >"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't
behave
> >the way he does," said Zambrano=2E "We care about him too much to let h=
im
get
> >away with acting this way=2E We have to address this issue in the
off-season
> >with a severity and a compassion that it deserves=2E"
> >
> >Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him=2E
> >
> >"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
> >bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis=2E "That's=
fine=2E
> >We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it=2E"
> >
> >Temperamental soccer players are nothing new=2E The stories of Roy Kean=
e's
> >persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled=2E But un=
like
> >Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis i=
s
> >not=2E Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team,
always
> >willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after t=
he
> >toughest of losses=2E On the field he transforms into a screamer, and s=
ome
> >would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first
MLS
> >match=2E Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior wit=
h
U=2ES=2E
> >national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
> >suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one ga=
me
at
> >the World Cup=2E
> >
> >"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back th=
en
> >and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said=2E "The
issues
> >about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became a=
n
> >issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to i=
t
and
> >does something about it=2E"
> >
> >There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions=2E While Saturday=
's
red
> >card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star
accumulated
> >six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001=2E He did not do much=
better
> >with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from
2001
> >to 2002 (six yellows and one red)=2E
> >
> >Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates=2E Brazi=
lian
> >forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last
year,
> >but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees=2E Zambra=
no
> >addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match,
which
> >made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow=2E
> >
> >What can the Metros do?
> >
> >Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem=2E The team will=
> >already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract=
> >expires after the 2003 season=2E The Georgia native has already stated =
that
he
> >is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS
doesn't
> >speed up it's contract talks=2E The anger management issues could becom=
e a
> >stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some
sort
> >of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives=2E The talk of bad behavi=
or
> >could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors=2E Whatever th=
e
case,
> >Zambrano was at least right in one statement=2E Mathis cannot spend mor=
e
time
> >arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue=
> >receiving cards=2E Even he would not argue with that=2E
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >NAS is hosted by America Kicks (http://www=2Eamericakicks=2Ecom)
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> >
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 10:39:01 2002
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Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
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On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 01:11:50 PM, RichieAnimal@cs.com wrote:
> On that game, it was an important game. Then why would Oz not start Andy
> Williams in that game?
I had a chance to speak with Andy Williams before the game. He was very disappointed that he wasn't starting. He did get in and play.
Now as to putting Ted Chronopolous up top, what the heck was Oz thinking???
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 11:03:40 2002
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Reply-To:
From: "Timothy D. Ristorcelli"
To: "NAS"
Subject: [nas] US Soccer News Links 09-17-02
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:04:25 -0400
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US Soccer News Links 09-17-02
http://www.sams-army.com/index.php/Mlist=news/Nyear=2002/Nmonth=09/Nday=17
____________________________________
Timothy D. Ristorcelli, MBA
crazo@tampabay.rr.com
Check out: http://www.sams-army.com
ICQ: 1361610
____________________________________
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 11:30:18 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:27:09 -0400
To: billq@rcnchicago.com,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
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No worries Bill - but you do make a valid point. He has not yet become the
public face and poster boy that many expected (and some might say US Soccer
needs).
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
Adult Soccer Vacations in the Sun
At 01:21 PM 9/17/02 -0400, billq@rcnchicago.com wrote:
>Guys, I didn't mean to imply that Clint had mental health problems. Those
>who know me well know that I am supersensitive to that. Once I had a
>chance to review what I wrote (done in a hurried break this morning), I
>think that the spirit of my remarks got me in trouble. Again, I think that
>Clint has been racked with bad luck since the WC, but he is by far not
>needing to see a shrink for his problems. An attitude adjustment on the
>field perhaps, but not mental helath treatments. Sorry if I stepped on any
>toes out here.
>
>Bill Q.
>
>Original Message:
>-----------------
>From: MrMoore mrmoore01@prodigy.net
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:00:27 -0500
>To: big_dog@fastmail.fm, nas@americakicks.com, nialls@rcn.com
>Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
>
>
>Amen. Geez, I cannot believe this thread.
>Jeff
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Niall Swan"
>To: ;
>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
>
>
> > Yes, I am not sure Mathis has something most other players don't. Many
> > players get more aggressive on the field, and while Mathis has gone too
>far
> > this weekend, my view is that this is not enough to suggest psychotherapy
> > (maybe he needs it, no more than the rest of us). It seems like his Coach
> > is over-reacting. What about good old fashioned public loyalty, and an arm
> > around the shoulder behind the scenes.
> >
> > Now Keane - there is a case for some "professional" help. But Mathis - not
>yet!
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > The Soccer Resort
> > www.soccerresort.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:48 AM 9/17/02 -0700, big_dog@fastmail.fm wrote:
> > >Jeese Bill, for a professional writer you sure dive off the deep end
> > >sometimes. I tend to remember the major knee surgery, the minor knee
> > >surgery as well. And despite the major one, some may argue he scored the
> > >hardest goal for the US in Korea vs Korea. Think that was easy? I was
> > >there , it was not. Im not debating Clint is off the wall in a Gazza
> > >sense of behavior, but get the impression Octavio is trying to pass the
> > >buck to save his job and as anyone in NY will tell you, thats beyond
>saving.
> > >BD
> > >
> > >>From: "billq@rcnchicago.com"
> > >>Reply-To: billq@rcnchicago.com
> > >>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:00 -0400
> > >>To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
> > >>Subject: RE: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> > >>
> > >Talk about someone who has lost all the momentum that he had. Back in
>May
> > >he looked to become the face of soccer in this country and since then he
> > >has just sunk down to the bottom while Donovan has become the darling of
> > >the sport. Then again, it could be the SI Jinx finally coming into
>effect.
> > >
> > >Original Message:
> > >-----------------
> > >From: Peter Welpton peter@lexandterry.com
> > >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:13:42 -0500
> > >To: nas@americakicks.com
> > >Subject: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >By Ives Galarcep
> > >North Jersey Herald News/Bergen Record - Sept. 17, 2002
> > >
> > >Octavio Zambrano attempted to find the words but could only shake his
>head
> > >in disbelief. The MetroStars coach's reaction Saturday was not in
>response
> > >to the embarrassing 2-1 defeat against D.C. United, or a result of seeing
> > >his team's playoff hopes whittled down even further. Zambrano was left
> > >speechless by the actions of a player he feels is losing control.
> > >
> > >At first glance, Clint Mathis' red card expulsion from Saturday's match
> > >seemed like an isolated incident, a case of a player accidentally
>stepping
> > >on an opponent and a shaky referee pulling out a red too quickly.
>Zambrano
> > >knew better. He has seen his star player lose his head too many times to
> > >believe that Saturday's incident was a mistake, so when Zambrano heard
>that
> > >Mathis called his stepping on D.C. midfielder Jose Alegria an accident,
>the
> > >coach finally spoke out.
> > >
> > >"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put
>into
> > >words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
> > >identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs
>to
> > >deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
> > >
> > >Zambrano's comments center around Mathis' on-field demeanor, which can be
> > >best described as maniacal at times. An easy-going and affable person off
> > >the field, Mathis switches from Dr. Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde on the field, with
> > >the soccer ball serving as his full moon. He rails on officials, berates
> > >teammates and challenges opponents with taunts and the occasional push or
> > >smack in the face. Zambrano has seen such behavior from Mathis since
> > >drafting him in for Los Angeles in 1998 but has apparently grown tired of
> > >it. When a reporter suggested that Mathis' behavior was simply a result
>of
> > >his competitive nature, Zambrano curses the notion.
> > >
> > >"I love him, I really do, but he needs to realize that he just can't
>behave
> > >the way he does," said Zambrano. "We care about him too much to let him
>get
> > >away with acting this way. We have to address this issue in the
>off-season
> > >with a severity and a compassion that it deserves."
> > >
> > >Mathis thinks Zambrano brought the issue up to motivate him.
> > >
> > >"Octavio believes there is a problem there and the only reason he is
> > >bringing it up publicly is to get my attention," said Mathis. "That's
>fine.
> > >We'll do whatever we have to do to fix it."
> > >
> > >Temperamental soccer players are nothing new. The stories of Roy Keane's
> > >persona, both on and off the field, have been well chronicled. But unlike
> > >Keane, who is as irascible out of uniform as he is in uniform, Mathis is
> > >not. Off the pitch he is one of the friendliest players on the team,
>always
> > >willing to chauffeur around new teammates and address the media after the
> > >toughest of losses. On the field he transforms into a screamer, and some
> > >would even say a dirty player, who earned a red card in his very first
>MLS
> > >match. Zambrano admitted addressing the issue of Mathis' behavior with
>U.S.
> > >national team coach Bruce Arena as far back as three years ago, and
> > >suggested that it may have played a part in Mathis starting only one game
>at
> > >the World Cup.
> > >
> > >"I don't know if Bruce remembers it, but we had that discussion back then
> > >and I think it came to a head at the World Cup," Zambrano said. "The
>issues
> > >about his behavior, his training habits, these are things that became an
> > >issue and will continue to be a problem for Clint until he owns up to it
>and
> > >does something about it."
> > >
> > >There are statistics to support Zambrano's assertions. While Saturday's
>red
> > >card was the first Mathis had received since 1999, the all-star
>accumulated
> > >six yellow cards with the Metros in 2000 and 2001. He did not do much
>better
> > >with the national team, leading all players on total cards earned from
>2001
> > >to 2002 (six yellows and one red).
> > >
> > >Some will say his antics have also rubbed off on his teammates. Brazilian
> > >forward Rodrigo Faria has continued his goal scoring success from last
>year,
> > >but he has also increased the amount of arguing with referees. Zambrano
> > >addressed the team's behavior toward referees before Saturday's match,
>which
> > >made Mathis' red card that much harder to swallow.
> > >
> > >What can the Metros do?
> > >
> > >Not much if Mathis doesn't agree that he has a problem. The team will
> > >already have its hands full negotiating with Mathis, whose MLS contract
> > >expires after the 2003 season. The Georgia native has already stated that
>he
> > >is ready to sign with a European club during next MLS season if MLS
>doesn't
> > >speed up it's contract talks. The anger management issues could become a
> > >stumbling block in negotiations, especially if the Metros suggest some
>sort
> > >of monetary penalty for cards Mathis receives. The talk of bad behavior
> > >could also be an attempt to scare away potential suitors. Whatever the
>case,
> > >Zambrano was at least right in one statement. Mathis cannot spend more
>time
> > >arguing than playing, and more importantly he cannot afford to continue
> > >receiving cards. Even he would not argue with that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 11:34:49 2002
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From: "Chris Allen"
To:
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:33:37 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [nas] MLS Playoff Scenarios
Reply-to: csallen@charter.net
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On 16 Sep 2002 at 21:48, Bill Quigley wrote:
> At 07:46 PM 9/16/2002 -0700, Jay Hipps wrote:
> >Somebody at MLS spent a lot of time putting this together...
>
>
> Reminds me of the NFL playoff scenarios that you see in the papers late in
> the season.
I'm still waiting for an explantion for why it's not: 1) Points, 2) Goal Diff,
and 3) Goals Scored. Period.
Chris Allen
csallen@charter.net
http://webpages.charter.net/csallen/soccer.htm
-
"Comrades, we always said it was a 5 year plan"
--NE Rev Fanzine "Pictures of Chairman Mao (1996-2001)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 11:36:36 2002
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From: RichieAnimal@cs.com
Message-ID: <22.2eef84df.2ab8d036@cs.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:36:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
To: dallan@netcarrier.com, nas@americakicks.com
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 2:08:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dallan@netcarrier.com writes:
> Now as to putting Ted Chronopolous up top, what the heck was Oz thinking???
I think the worst part of OZ coaching comes out when he makes a substitution.
The only reason to sub at that level is to improve team performance. I think
Faria wastes a lot of chances but he can score, and he has very good
endurance he can go the whole game and extra time as well. Why was he taken
out? Maybe, he was hurt :-)
Richie
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 2:08:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dallan@netcarrier.com writes:
Now as to putting Ted Chronopolous up top, what the heck was Oz thinking???
I think the worst part of OZ coaching comes out when he makes a substitution. The only reason to sub at that level is to improve team performance. I think Faria wastes a lot of chances but he can score, and he has very good endurance he can go the whole game and extra time as well. Why was he taken out? Maybe, he was hurt :-)
Richie
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 13:03:40 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:03:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Goloboy
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Subject: Re: [nas] MLS Playoff Scenarios
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On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, Chris Allen wrote:
> On 16 Sep 2002 at 21:48, Bill Quigley wrote:
>
> > At 07:46 PM 9/16/2002 -0700, Jay Hipps wrote:
> > >Somebody at MLS spent a lot of time putting this together...
> >
> >
> > Reminds me of the NFL playoff scenarios that you see in the papers late in
> > the season.
>
> I'm still waiting for an explantion for why it's not: 1) Points, 2)
> Goal Diff, and 3) Goals Scored.
My guesses would be:
1. Unbalanced schedule makes goal differential less useful (Of course it
also has the same effect on points).
2. Goal differential might be easier to manipulate (teams may find it
advantageous to intentionally allow goals to affect the playoff seeding
and face an opponent of their choice).
3. That's how the other leagues here do it.
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 14:11:09 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Mangi
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
To: RichieAnimal@cs.com, peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
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--- RichieAnimal@cs.com wrote:
>
>
> Have a problem with a player take him a side
> privately, and talk to him about
> it. You don't say anything about one of your players
> to the press that could
> hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
Tell that to Arena.
__________________________________________________
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 14:14:33 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:11:27 -0400
To: Rick Mangi ,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
In-Reply-To: <20020917211117.24112.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>
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Why Arena?
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
Adult Soccer Vacations in the Sun
At 02:11 PM 9/17/02 -0700, Rick Mangi wrote:
>--- RichieAnimal@cs.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Have a problem with a player take him a side
> > privately, and talk to him about
> > it. You don't say anything about one of your players
> > to the press that could
> > hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
>
>Tell that to Arena.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
>http://finance.yahoo.com
>
>---
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 14:19:27 2002
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From: "Keith Bundy"
To:
References: <14c.142d29d4.2ab8bc56@cs.com> <4.2.2.20020917171034.00bc07e0@pop.rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:19:01 -0400
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Because he took Mathis to task in the press for his general lack of
professionalism before the World Cup.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Niall Swan"
> Why Arena?
> At 02:11 PM 9/17/02 -0700, Rick Mangi wrote:
>
> >--- RichieAnimal@cs.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Have a problem with a player take him a side
> > > privately, and talk to him about
> > > it. You don't say anything about one of your players
> > > to the press that could
> > > hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
> >
> >Tell that to Arena.
---
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 14:19:52 2002
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Mangi
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
To: Niall Swan , nas@americakicks.com
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Um... remember that little tourney in Japan/Korea?
--- Niall Swan wrote:
> Why Arena?
>
>
> > > Have a problem with a player take him a side
> > > privately, and talk to him about
> > > it. You don't say anything about one of your
> players
> > > to the press that could
> > > hurt the player. All the press want is a story.
> >
> >Tell that to Arena.
> >
> >____________
__________________________________________________
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From: RichieAnimal@cs.com
Message-ID: <6f.2dd4b050.2ab9056a@cs.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:23:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nialls@rcn.com
writes:
> Why Arena?
>
Because Arena was another one who liked to tell stories about players to the
press.
But it is possible that Arena did tell Mathis first before he mentioned it to
the press. Plus telling the press about Mathis being out of shape is very
different that saying the player needed mental help.
Richie
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nialls@rcn.com writes:
Why Arena?
Because Arena was another one who liked to tell stories about players to the press.
But it is possible that Arena did tell Mathis first before he mentioned it to the press. Plus telling the press about Mathis being out of shape is very different that saying the player needed mental help.
Richie
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http://espn.go.com/soccer/news/2001/0109/1004502.html
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Subject: [nas] Man .U resechedule US tour
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Reply-To: "Richard Beal"
From: "Richard Beal"
To: , "NAS"
References: <6f.2dd4b050.2ab9056a@cs.com>
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:03:26 -0400
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All I ever remember Arena saying was that Mathis was not fit. That =
could mean, in "coachspeak", that he had a nagging injury and was not =
at his best.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: RichieAnimal@cs.com=20
To: nialls@rcn.com ; rmangi@yahoo.com ; nas@americakicks.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, =
nialls@rcn.com writes:=20
Why Arena?=20
Because Arena was another one who liked to tell stories about players =
to the press.=20
But it is possible that Arena did tell Mathis first before he =
mentioned it to the press. Plus telling the press about Mathis being out =
of shape is very different that saying the player needed mental help.=20
Richie=20
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C25E96.0C99B320
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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All I ever remember Arena saying was =
that Mathis=20
was not fit. That could mean, in "coachspeak", that he had a =
nagging=20
injury and was not at his best.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20
RichieAnimal@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, =
2002 6:23=20
PM
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone=20
Mental?
In a =
message dated=20
9/17/2002 5:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nialls@rcn.com writes:
Why Arena?
Because Arena was =
another one who=20
liked to tell stories about players to the press.
But it is =
possible=20
that Arena did tell Mathis first before he mentioned it to the press. =
Plus=20
telling the press about Mathis being out of shape is very different =
that=20
saying the player needed mental help.
Richie=20
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From: Noah Elliott
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Subject: Re: [nas] MLS Playoff Scenarios
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Chris Allen wrote:
>
>
> I'm still waiting for an explantion for why it's not: 1) Points, 2) Goal Diff,
> and 3) Goals Scored. Period.
> Chris Allen
Because MLS wants to be like Spain and the Champions League.
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:33:06 -0700
From: Warren Van Orden
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental?
To: nas@americakicks.com
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In very different ways we have clearly seen both Arena and "OZ" go =
public with rather strong criticisms of Mathis.
Two very different coaches. =20
Remember Arena essetially was publicly calling Clint out as lazy when he =
siad he wasn't working hard enough to get back in shape. Arena seems to =
be usually sucessful and motivating his players, and it is rare to hear =
him speak badly..or even particularly critically...of anyone on his =
teams. He must have carefully decided that all his efforts out of the =
spotlight had failed, and maybe a little bit of public embarassment was =
worth trying as a last resort. He must have thought Clint really needed =
a kick in the butt if he was going to get back in shape.
I, too, think it's rather extraordinary to hear a coach go public about =
a player clearly needs professional help in dealing with his mental =
state. But doesn't it seem likely that OZ is right?
The debate about whether OZ (or Bruce) behaved professionally is a minor =
point compared to whatever is up with Clint. I doubt it is a trivial =
issue.
One wonders whether a bit of craziness was necessary to drive Clint to =
the level of excellence he achieved, particularly prior to his June 2001 =
injury, or whether fame and public acclaim are enough to make one a bit =
crazy.
What was his pre MLS history? Is is a blip, or is he a total head case? =
Can any of us on the outside even have a clue?
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In very different ways we have clearly =
seen both=20
Arena and "OZ" go public with rather strong criticisms of =
Mathis.
Two very different coaches. =
Remember Arena essetially was publicly =
calling=20
Clint out as lazy when he siad he wasn't working hard enough to get back =
in=20
shape. Arena seems to be usually sucessful and motivating his =
players, and=20
it is rare to hear him speak badly..or even particularly critically...of =
anyone=20
on his teams. He must have carefully decided that all his efforts =
out of=20
the spotlight had failed, and maybe a little bit of public embarassment =
was=20
worth trying as a last resort. He must have thought Clint really =
needed a=20
kick in the butt if he was going to get back in shape.
I, too, think it's rather extraordinary =
to hear a=20
coach go public about a player clearly needs professional help in =
dealing with=20
his mental state. But doesn't it seem likely that OZ is=20
right?
The debate about whether OZ (or Bruce) =
behaved=20
professionally is a minor point compared to whatever is up with=20
Clint. I doubt it is a trivial issue.
One wonders whether a bit of craziness =
was=20
necessary to drive Clint to the level of excellence he achieved, =
particularly=20
prior to his June 2001 injury, or whether fame and public acclaim =
are=20
enough to make one a bit crazy.
What was his pre MLS history? Is =
is a blip,=20
or is he a total head case? Can any of us on the outside even have =
a=20
clue?
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Tue Sep 17 23:39:01 2002
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From: "Kevin Lindstrom"
To: "NAS"
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Subject: [nas] "Move the final" indeed.
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:31:30 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Lindstrom
> As a heads up to the list, our good friend from Los Angeles, Dan Looney is
> doing his tremendous work for CyberSoccer. Take a look.
>
> http://cybersoccernews.com/columnists/loney/020912loney.shtml
>
My response....
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> Well, let me say that I am a bit confused. I appreciate the comments
about
> Jeffries and the Cup -- going into the Week from Hell, we all wanted him
to
> do exactly what he did. We just didn't think we'd get smoked in all the
> games. And few if any fault him for the decision to play the kids in
> Denver -- although we do kind of fault him for once again coming up short
in
> big games. And I think one of the things that killed our morale was that
we
> came so close to winning that game in Colorado. And yes, Mr. Titus ought
> not to walk the streets of Dallas alone anytime soon, although I would
only
> state to him that they needed 87 of 90 minutes to beat a bunch of
rookies...
>
> But then you turn around after praising the move by Jeffries to respect
the
> Cup, and then ask for LA to host the final? How many games has LA played
in
> the USOC outside Cali? And how fair is that? Granted, LA has a good
> argument being the holders at least being the top seed throughout the
> tournament, but it seems to me that the best thing for the tradition of
the
> USOC would be to spread the wealth. IMHO, the final should be in
Columbus,
> whether the Crew are in it or not.
>
> It is the Lamar Hunt USOC, and there is no bigger stage in MLS for Lamar
> than Crew Stadium. It is centrally located so people can make the games
> from either coast in somewhat relative ease. I know -- I drove with a van
> full of Infernites to the 97 USOC in Indiana from Dallas on a Wednesday
> night in what I believe to be the only MLS-related post-championship-win
> pitch invasion.
>
> As the Right Honorable Gentleman from Fort Worth, Mr. Parrish Glover,
stated
> recently, "the Open Cup is for 'Us,' the hard core. It is our secret
party
> where we get to have the stadiums to ourselves and to have an effect on
the
> game." For now, attendance isn't what is as important as giving the
> die-hards their addiction, pure, unrefined, uncut. I loved hearing that
> lower division teams hate playing MLS clubs mostly because of the ribbing
> they get from the stands.
>
> As such, the USOC should be as accessible to as many as possible. LA
> hosting another game would do a disservice to the Cup as a whole. Sure, I
> agree that the game should be on a weekend if at all possible, but push it
> back a week if need be, but don't give LA another home game -- it already
> appears like the Fed is trying to give the Gals an undue advantage. Why
add
> to it?
>
> So Sez Drummer Boy
> http://flashpages.prodigy.net/klindstr/home.html
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:07:12 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental? (or has Zambrano?)
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 11:20:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
peter@lexandterry.com writes:
> "Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
> words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
> identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
> deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
>
It's not just Clint who needs "professional" help the entire MetroStars' team
needs professional help. They need a professional coach! In may opinion
Clint's erratic behavior is only a symptom of a greater problem, that of a
coach who while he may know his "X's" and "O's" leaves much to be desired in
other areas.
Anyone who watches the MetroStars on a semi-regular basis, can tell you that
that team lacks any degree of discipline, and self-control. It is the
coaches job to decide on a strategy, based on his and his players abilities,
and then to provide them with the direction, encouragement, and yes,
discipline to get the team to act as a cohesive unit. The MetroStars have
drifted so far away from being a cohesive unit that it appears that there is
no way back for them. No way back, with many of the current players, who are
now openly bickering with one another, or the current coaching staff.
A "professional" coach would certainly not question one of his players mental
state in the media!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 11:20:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter@lexandterry.com writes:
"Clint needs help, professional help," said Zambrano, who could not put into
words what is wrong with Mathis. "I am not professionally qualified to
identify what is wrong with him but Clint has some issues that he needs to
deal with and we as a team need to deal with once the season is over."
It's not just Clint who needs "professional" help the entire MetroStars' team needs professional help. They need a professional coach! In may opinion Clint's erratic behavior is only a symptom of a greater problem, that of a coach who while he may know his "X's" and "O's" leaves much to be desired in other areas.
Anyone who watches the MetroStars on a semi-regular basis, can tell you that that team lacks any degree of discipline, and self-control. It is the coaches job to decide on a strategy, based on his and his players abilities, and then to provide them with the direction, encouragement, and yes, discipline to get the team to act as a cohesive unit. The MetroStars have drifted so far away from being a cohesive unit that it appears that there is no way back for them. No way back, with many of the current players, who are now openly bickering with one another, or the current coaching staff.
A "professional" coach would certainly not question one of his players mental state in the media!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 04:14:46 2002
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:14:50 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental? (Arena)
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 6:32:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RichieAnimal@cs.com writes:
> Because Arena was another one who liked to tell stories about players to the
>
"Telling stories" about players, or even questioning a players desire,
ability, or competence, is much different than questioning his mental health!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 6:32:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RichieAnimal@cs.com writes:
Because Arena was another one who liked to tell stories about players to the press.
"Telling stories" about players, or even questioning a players desire, ability, or competence, is much different than questioning his mental health!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 04:59:12 2002
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From: TheWizardofld@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:59:18 EDT
Subject: [nas] Has Tam Ramos been a detriment to the MLS?
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I wanted to wait a days until all the acculations about Tab, his wonderful
career, and his wonderful contributions to the world of soccer have subsided.
While Tab has demonstrated that he does have wonderful ball skills, a
superior knowledge of the game, and terrific vision on the field. I think
that as far as the MLS and the MetroStars are concerned he may have been more
detrimental than a benefit.
It is a fact, that Tab has played in less than one half of the games that he
could have.
And while in many of those games he demonstrate superior abilities, in many
more games he did not. In fact, while Tab could have used his recognizably,
to set an example for the newer players in the league, and the kids watching
at home or at the game, we often saw a "hot headed, cry baby" instead.
Just as damaging to the Metro, and the MLS is the fact that while Tab was a
memeber of the MetroStars, his roster spot in his salary prevented the league
and the MLS from signing other players who could have contributed more to the
league and the team. Let's face it while Tab does bring a certain amount of
"recognizablity" to the league, what good does it do if he is never there?
For all of Tab's "recognizablity" players like Mike Petke, Richie Wiliams,
and Demarcus Beasley, have done more for the MLS, with their presence on the
pitch than Tab has done.
If you doubt that other players have contributed more to the health of the
MLS, all you have to do is walk around Giant's Stadium and look at the
jerseys that the young kids are wearing. They are wearing Mike Petke, Clint
Mathis, and Timmy Howard jerseys.
I do not wish Tab Ramos ill, but I for one will certainly not lament his
departure.
The King is Dead, long live the King
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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I wanted to wait a days until all the acculations about Tab, his wonderful career, and his wonderful contributions to the world of soccer have subsided.
While Tab has demonstrated that he does have wonderful ball skills, a superior knowledge of the game, and terrific vision on the field. I think that as far as the MLS and the MetroStars are concerned he may have been more detrimental than a benefit.
It is a fact, that Tab has played in less than one half of the games that he could have.
And while in many of those games he demonstrate superior abilities, in many more games he did not. In fact, while Tab could have used his recognizably, to set an example for the newer players in the league, and the kids watching at home or at the game, we often saw a "hot headed, cry baby" instead.
Just as damaging to the Metro, and the MLS is the fact that while Tab was a memeber of the MetroStars, his roster spot in his salary prevented the league and the MLS from signing other players who could have contributed more to the league and the team. Let's face it while Tab does bring a certain amount of "recognizablity" to the league, what good does it do if he is never there? For all of Tab's "recognizablity" players like Mike Petke, Richie Wiliams, and Demarcus Beasley, have done more for the MLS, with their presence on the pitch than Tab has done.
If you doubt that other players have contributed more to the health of the MLS, all you have to do is walk around Giant's Stadium and look at the jerseys that the young kids are wearing. They are wearing Mike Petke, Clint Mathis, and Timmy Howard jerseys.
I do not wish Tab Ramos ill, but I for one will certainly not lament his departure.
The King is Dead, long live the King
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 07:05:05 2002
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:05:25 -0500
From: Peter Welpton
Subject: [nas] That's gotta hurt
To: US Soccer List
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Hadnt seen this discussed on the list...
Richard Mulrooney is out for the season for the Quakes with a broken ankle!
That will put a dent in their hopes to repeat as he is an unsung hero for
that squad. I can't think off the top of my head who would fill is spot...
peet
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 07:26:08 2002
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:26:06 -0700
From: Jay Hipps
Subject: Re: [nas] That's gotta hurt
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My guess is that they'll move Corrales to d-mid, Lagos to the left, and
insert Ian Russell on the right. Corrales is having the best season of
his career and has filled in for Richard before, so they're at least
treading on familiar ground. Losing Mulrooney will hurt but it may also
provide a rallying point for the team.
I find it amazing that Mulrooney broke his ankle at some point during
the match against LA last Saturday but still played the full 90.
Jay
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002, at 07:05 AM, Peter Welpton wrote:
> Hadnt seen this discussed on the list...
>
> Richard Mulrooney is out for the season for the Quakes with a broken
> ankle!
> That will put a dent in their hopes to repeat as he is an unsung hero
> for
> that squad. I can't think off the top of my head who would fill is
> spot...
>
> peet
>
>
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Subject: [nas] FW: Heinrichs Names 28 to Train for 2002 Nike U.S. Women's Cup
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HEINRICHS NAMES 28 TO TRAIN FOR 2002 NIKE U.S. WOMEN'S CUP; U.S. WILL FACE
RUSSIA, ITALY AND AUSTRALIA IN N.Y. AND N.C.
Heinrichs Will Choose 18 for Tournament as USA Defends Perfect Record
CHICAGO (Tuesday, September 17, 2002) - U.S. Women's National Team head
coach April Heinrichs has named 28 players to train for four days in Long
Island, N.Y., before the USA opens the 2002 Nike U.S. Women's Cup against
Russia at the Mitchel Athletic Complex on Sept. 29 at 4 p.m. ET in a match
presented by Philips Electronics.
Continue: http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=22136
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FW: Heinrichs Names 28 to Train for 2002 Nike U.S. Women's Cup</TITL=
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<TT>HEINRICHS NAMES 28 TO TRAIN FOR 2002 NIKE U.S. WOMEN'S CUP; U.S. WILL F=
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<BR>
Heinrichs Will Choose 18 for Tournament as USA Defends Perfect Record<BR>
<BR>
CHICAGO (Tuesday, September 17, 2002) - U.S. Women's National Team head coa=
ch April Heinrichs has named 28 players to train for four days in Long Islan=
d, N.Y., before the USA opens the 2002 Nike U.S. Women's Cup against Russia =
at the Mitchel Athletic Complex on Sept. 29 at 4 p.m. ET in a match presente=
d by Philips Electronics.<BR>
<BR>
Continue: http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=3D22136<BR>
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:33:58 -0700
Subject: [nas] USL/MLS Affiliation not being renewed?
From: <big_dog@fastmail.fm>
To: NAS <NAS@americakicks.com>
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FYI from Pallo.
----------
From: Mark Pallo <mpallo@rhinopit.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:42:16 -0400
Subject: USL/MLS Affiliation?
"Major League Soccer's partnership with the United Soccer Leagues, in
effect since 1996, will not be renewed. This is the final year of a
four-year contract that designates USL teams as official affiliates of
MLS teams and generates some income for A-League members who lose
contracted players to MLS."
The Kickers, for example, received about $27,000 from a designated
$250,000 pool when Dwayne DeRosario signed with the San Jose Earthquakes
last year. Richmond expects to receive a larger amount for goalie Mike
McGinty, signed by D.C. United this year.
"They [MLS] just aren't interested in going forward," said Kickers
General Manager Billy Hallock.
Soccer Notes - Richmond Times-Dispatch
http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/localpros/kickers/MGBJDRFL86D.html
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<TITLE>USL/MLS Affiliation not being renewed?
FYI from Pallo.
----------
From: Mark Pallo <mpallo@rhinopit.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:42:16 -0400
Subject: USL/MLS Affiliation?
"Major League Soccer's partnership with the United Soccer Leagues,=
in
effect since 1996, will not be renewed. This is the final year of a
four-year contract that designates USL teams as official affiliates of
MLS teams and generates some income for A-League members who lose
contracted players to MLS."
The Kickers, for example, received about $27,000 from a designated
$250,000 pool when Dwayne DeRosario signed with the San Jose Earthquakes
last year. Richmond expects to receive a larger amount for goalie Mike
McGinty, signed by D.C. United this year.
"They [MLS] just aren't interested in going forward," said Kicker=
s
General Manager Billy Hallock.
Soccer Notes - Richmond Times-Dispatch
http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/localpros/kickers/MGBJDRFL86D.html
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 07:39:20 2002
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Interesting=2E Wonder what kind of system will replace this, if any? Does=
this mean that the MLS teams may start up their own true reserve squads?=20=
Original Message:
-----------------
From: big_dog@fastmail=2Efm
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:33:58 -0700
To: NAS@americakicks=2Ecom
Subject: [nas] USL/MLS Affiliation not being renewed?
FYI from Pallo=2E
----------
From: Mark Pallo
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:42:16 -0400
Subject: USL/MLS Affiliation?
"Major League Soccer's partnership with the United Soccer Leagues, in
effect since 1996, will not be renewed=2E This is the final year of a
four-year contract that designates USL teams as official affiliates of
MLS teams and generates some income for A-League members who lose
contracted players to MLS=2E"
The Kickers, for example, received about $27,000 from a designated
$250,000 pool when Dwayne DeRosario signed with the San Jose Earthquakes
last year=2E Richmond expects to receive a larger amount for goalie Mike
McGinty, signed by D=2EC=2E United this year=2E
"They [MLS] just aren't interested in going forward," said Kickers
General Manager Billy Hallock=2E
Soccer Notes - Richmond Times-Dispatch
http://www=2Etimesdispatch=2Ecom/sports/localpros/kickers/MGBJDRFL86D=2Eht=
ml
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:55:36 -0700
Subject: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
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http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:59:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: PETER V GRATTON
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Subject: Re: [nas] Mathis Gone Mental? (or has Zambrano?)
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On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 TheWizardofld@aol.com wrote:
It's not just Clint who needs "professional" help the entire
>MetroStars' team needs professional help. They need a professional
> coach! In my opinion Clint's erratic behavior is only a symptom of a
> greater problem, that of a coach who while he may know his "X's" and
> "O's" leaves much to be desired in other areas.
> Anyone who watches the MetroStars on a semi-regular basis, can tell you that
> that team lacks any degree of discipline, and self-control. It is the
> coaches job to decide on a strategy, based on his and his players abilities,
> and then to provide them with the direction, encouragement, and yes,
> discipline to get the team to act as a cohesive unit. The MetroStars have
> drifted so far away from being a cohesive unit that it appears that there is
> no way back for them. No way back, with many of the current players, who are
> now openly bickering with one another, or the current coaching staff.
> A "professional" coach would certainly not question one of his players mental
> state in the media!
IMHO, Clint is probably one of the vocal opposition to OZ. I wouldn't be
surprised that this was Coach speak to say Clint has a Bad Attitude.
However as several people have pointed out the TEAM is cracked apart and
a NEW Coach is the Only solution short of wholesale trades. For those of us
who have coached, we know sometimes the Coach takes the fall for player
performance and sometimes the TEAM takes the blame for Coach performance.
This seems to be the TEAM taking one for the Coach's lack of team
building ability. Sometimes all it takes it to trade a problem player or
bring in what the team lacks in leadership. While WE don't know all the
details, it sure looks like OZ didn't do what it would take to build a
TEAM and as has been pointed out he doesn't change during the game or sub
well. At least, he doesn't seem to get the desired result.
I will say after 30+ years of coaching young players [4-21] that
sometimes you as the coach just can't reach the players enough to get the
desired results. Usually the one or two Critical players will not respond
for you but as a Pro Coach it means trade time.
Peter Gratton
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:05:26 -0500
From: Peter Welpton
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
To: US Soccer List
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> http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
Now, if you remember, I am a supporter of the Elo Ranking system that
currently has the US at 19th. http://www.eloratings.net
While not perfect, a much more accurate picture of International Football.
let the overly exhaustive and debated thread BEGIN!!
peet
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:08:52 -0400
To: Peter Welpton ,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA
rankings
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Hmm - Holland and Spain are quite high given their history of
underachievement Holland did not even qualify for the world cup. Australia
is ranked 17 ahead of the US. Ok a major boob there. It's seems in terms of
which one is better, that it's six of one, and half a dozen of the other!
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
Adult Soccer Vacations in the Sun
At 10:05 AM 9/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
>
>
>OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
>
>Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
>
>Now, if you remember, I am a supporter of the Elo Ranking system that
>currently has the US at 19th. http://www.eloratings.net
>
>While not perfect, a much more accurate picture of International Football.
>
>let the overly exhaustive and debated thread BEGIN!!
>
>peet
>
>
>---
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:11:52 -0400
To: Peter Welpton ,nas@americakicks.com
From: Niall Swan
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA
rankings
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020918110602.00c20b40@pop.rcn.com>
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Just to clarify my last sentence, I meant that there seems to be little
difference in the outcomes of either rating systems (I did not mean that
the US and Oz were of similar abilities).
Niall
The Soccer Resort
www.soccerresort.com
Adult Soccer Vacations in the Sun
At 11:08 AM 9/18/02 -0400, Niall Swan wrote:
>Hmm - Holland and Spain are quite high given their history of
>underachievement Holland did not even qualify for the world cup. Australia
>is ranked 17 ahead of the US. Ok a major boob there. It's seems in terms
>of which one is better, that it's six of one, and half a dozen of the other!
>
>Niall
>
>The Soccer Resort
>www.soccerresort.com
>Adult Soccer Vacations in the Sun
>
>
>
>
>At 10:05 AM 9/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>> > http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
>>
>>
>>OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
>>
>>Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
>>
>>Now, if you remember, I am a supporter of the Elo Ranking system that
>>currently has the US at 19th. http://www.eloratings.net
>>
>>While not perfect, a much more accurate picture of International Football.
>>
>>let the overly exhaustive and debated thread BEGIN!!
>>
>>peet
>>
>>
>>---
>>NAS is hosted by America Kicks (http://www.americakicks.com)
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nas.americakicks.com
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>
>
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:26:36 2002
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Reply-To:
From: "Mason F. Berryman"
To: "US Soccer List"
Subject: RE: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:26:35 -0400
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OK, I'll bite.
Both of these (computerized, I guess) rankings have problems. I only had a
second to look at this ELO list but (in no particular order),
Holland at #2 - they didn't make the world cup
Mexico 3 spots better than the US? Not based on the last two years.
Australia at #17? Two spots above the US????
I would be interested to see something akin to the "coaches poll" that comes
out for NCAA football.
Mason
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Welpton
> http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
Now, if you remember, I am a supporter of the Elo Ranking system that
currently has the US at 19th. http://www.eloratings.net
While not perfect, a much more accurate picture of International Football.
let the overly exhaustive and debated thread BEGIN!!
peet
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:26:44 2002
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From: "Keith Bundy"
To: "US Soccer List"
References: <00fa01c25f24$d1b8b640$6501a8c0@d0h9901>
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:15:59 -0400
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I cannot argue the point that there are more than seven teams in the world
better than the US, however, I'm not sure that there are 18 teams that are.
The only reason I concern myself with world rankings is a possible seed in
Germany... that would be wild, and it is possible (I won't do all that stats
again, though). That's why I value the FIFA rankings over Elo.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Welpton"
> >
http://sports.yahoo.com/m/world/news/reuters/20020918/reu-rankingsdc.html
>
> OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long
ago.
>
> Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
>
> Now, if you remember, I am a supporter of the Elo Ranking system that
> currently has the US at 19th. http://www.eloratings.net
>
> While not perfect, a much more accurate picture of International Football.
>
> let the overly exhaustive and debated thread BEGIN!!
>
> peet
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:31:30 2002
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:31:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
To: peter@lexandterry.com, nas@americakicks.com
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In a message dated 9/18/2002 11:05:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
peter@lexandterry.com writes:
> OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
>
> Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH?
I dont know just how valid these rankings are, so perhaps the US can play a
couple "friendlies" against Italy and England to determine if there is any
validity to those rankings (which do count when it come to placement in the
World Cup brakets).... PLEASE!
Here in this country that is!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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In a message dated 9/18/2002 11:05:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter@lexandterry.com writes:
OK, we had a major debate about the reality of this thing not too long ago.
Can anyone really defend this? Come on, EIGHTH? Over England and Italy?
I dont know just how valid these rankings are, so perhaps the US can play a couple "friendlies" against Italy and England to determine if there is any validity to those rankings (which do count when it come to placement in the World Cup brakets).... PLEASE!
Here in this country that is!
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:43:28 2002
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Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings (also)
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I guess the South Korean bandwagon got overcrowded...... for all the hype
that they had gotten during and after the World Cup, they are still only
ranked 21st. Probably about where they belong but I am surprised not to see
them ranked a bit higher.
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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I guess the South Korean bandwagon got overcrowded...... for all the hype that they had gotten during and after the World Cup, they are still only ranked 21st. Probably about where they belong but I am surprised not to see them ranked a bit higher.
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:49:19 2002
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From: "James V. Geluso"
To: nas@americakicks.com
Subject: Re: [nas] US Men rise to eighth inthe world in latest FIFA rankings
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I don't understand. We have played no games since the post-World Cup
rankings came out. England and Italy have dropped... but have they lost
games? There has only been one round of Euro 2004 qualifying... I don't
get it.
--
james geluso:atlemar@io.com:in my mind i'm everyone
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To post, send an email to nas@americakicks.comFrom Wed Sep 18 08:53:07 2002
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Subject: [nas] Copa Caribe
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Is the Copa Caribe a tounament to determine which teams will be representing
that region in the Gold Cup?
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -
Shakespeare
__________________________________________________________________
"Men are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of
them."
Epictetus (The Enchiridion)
___________________________________________________________________
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is" Book of Proverbs (23: 7)
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Is the Copa Caribe a tounament to determine which teams will be representing that region in the Gold Cup?
Ed
"There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare